Listen to this podcast Ep. 154: From Software Developer to Entrepreneur: How Beau Button Co-Built a Gaming Empire That Pays Players Real Cash

Interviews, strategy and advice for building your online business with your host Trudy Rankin.

Trudy Rankin: Welcome to the Online Business Launchpad podcast. I am your host, Trudy Rankin, and today I have with me Beau Button. He is the president and CTO of Atlas Reality. And as soon as I saw his name and what it was that he did. I went, “Oh”, I would love to talk to this guy because.

He works with a mobile game technology company that is focused on what he says is redefining the location-based game industry. But I looked at their website, and they do so much more than that. It's just a really wide and interesting concept, and they have this app called Atlas Earth that has a lot of registered users and has become the largest virtual real estate app in the world.

And the reason I am interested in this is because, in my previous life, I actually learned a lot and knew a lot about geospatial technology and how you can apply geospatial technology in things that. You wouldn't even think are related to the concept of where a location is on earth or where a point is on earth, and you can use it for so many useful things that are just great for society.

And who can't live without GPS? So, I thought I would love the talk to Beau, so welcome to the podcast, Beau.

Beau Button: Thank you for having me. I am looking forward to talking about all of these interesting topics, especially the geospatial stuff; I have a lot of background in that as well.

Beau Button's Path From Software To Gaming Empire

Trudy Rankin: So, before we get stuck into the geeky stuff that we both do, can you just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you got started with this business?

Beau Button: The business that I am in today, mobile games, has not been what I've been doing for probably the majority of my career.

I have always been in software, but I spent most of my time in the enterprise software space. We formed this business about seven years ago; it was originally called Servers Interactive, and now it's called Atlas Reality. But from an early age, I would say maybe 10 or 11 years old, my childhood was deep into computers and software, so it was just a kind of natural evolution.

Opportunities present themselves. I have always been a serial entrepreneur. I can talk a little bit more I consider myself unemployable because I'm blunt and very direct. So, I feel better and I am happier when running my own ship or with partners if we are co-pilots, etcetera. I was presented with an opportunity by a childhood friend; he had desires to create his own game company, and we went in 50/50, and here we are.

Trudy Rankin: That's a very short way of saying a whole lot of stuff because we could talk about what it's like to build a business with a co-founder.

That's a bit of a journey in and of itself. Just talk a little bit about that journey of starting a business from scratch, and how did that go? Because it's obviously software-based. It's a software-as-a service type of business. Just talk a little bit about what it's like building a business like that.

Beau Button: Absolutely. It's a lot easier now to register your business, making sure you've got all of your E.I.N., and all of that's online. Even as a teenager, I was enamoured with the idea of registering a business back then. An L.C. in the state of Louisiana was maybe $99.

You registered with the Secretary of State. I did that a few times for myself, and for other folks, all of that is automated. You just sign up, pay somebody, and it gets done. But knowing how to do this is probably my seventh or eighth business, so you get much better at it.

The tools get much better; things change, but it's rewarding. There's a lot that you have to do, and it's stressful. I always joke that when I started this, I had a full head of hair, but that's not entirely true. I started going bald when I was in my early twenties. But it's a fun thought. There's definitely a lot of cortisol, but look, I wouldn't have it any other way. It's nice if you feel like there's an opportunity in one direction as the co-founder or whatever your position may be in the business; if you've started it, you can go that way. Sometimes you're wrong, a lot of times you're wrong, but the fact that you've got that freedom- there's nothing better than that, quite honestly.

Trudy Rankin: So, in terms of software as a service-type business, is it very different from the different types of businesses that you tried to start before, or maybe you successfully started them before? Maybe answer that first.

Beau Button: I have had two exits, which is good, but I've learned more from my failures. And the ones that I failed on were passion projects where I just felt I had learned how to balance data and my feelings to make sure that I wasn't going down a rabbit hole.

But with software, we build video games, so there is a software as a service component. People demand the product be online; they are not buying a retail box product. You are getting it from the Apple App Store, Google Play, etcetera. I spent most of my career as a consultant building products for other businesses, and the client was their internal employees.

It is very different from that industry where you're building, let's say, there is a bespoke business that needs some type of software to do X, Y, or Z, but there's no off-the-shelf now, there's always an off the shelf option if you want to spend a lot of money to customise SAP or an Oracle product if you can raise that kind of money.

But a lot of times, these businesses will hire companies to build something from the ground up. Very different; we have a lot more customers. I always joke that people think that video games because are fun, building video games for other people is fun.

Gamers, just forgive me. This is a stereotype that is, for the most part, very ungrateful and unforgiving. I am not saying that the business people were just super pleasant to work with, but I underestimate it from a community and from a custom perspective, and that has nothing to do with the SAS thing. That is just games; games are a monsters.

Trudy Rankin: Yes, because you get into a game and you want it to work a certain way, and when it doesn't, it's an experience-based type of approach.

Beau Button: Absolutely.

Introducing the Atlas Reality Gaming Experience

Trudy Rankin: So, it sounds like you focus quite heavily on the customer side of things. Because you are the CTO, you are the chief technical Officer. In what way do you interact with your customers to help understand what they want, and need?

Beau Button: In all honesty, I don't masquerade as a user experience or customer experience like that; I've been doing this literally. I'm 40 now, so 30 years. But that's not my passion. I know a lot about it, so I know when to chime in. My partner saw me, who's on the user acquisition and game design side, and then our VP of product, Chris; that's their forte. Put the customers first. You're absolutely right when you said it's an experience first thing.

People who are processing invoices. They won't mind a progress bar. If I put a progress bar in the middle of collecting a loot crate, people are going to start going nuts. So yes, we do put that first, but that's not even on the tech side. I don't necessarily influence that a whole lot.

If I'm speaking loudly about UX, that means it's bad. But I trust the judgement of my partner and our VP of product. That's what they do. And that is the first thing we start with; it is like the path of least resistance, the most natural. And we try not to invent.

And while this sounds counterintuitive, a lot of companies say, “We've invented this; we've invented that.” I'm one of those people who thinks almost everything has been invented. Everything I am doing for the last 10 years is like a mashup of a bunch of things.

But yes, the end-user experience is at the forefront of what we do. And that's true for most games. The games that succeed.

Trudy Rankin: So, I want to just dive in a little bit. What Atlas Reality really is, and what it does, and why people would find it interesting. Do you want to just talk a little bit about that- what it is and what it does?

Beau Button: Absolutely. So much like you, I had probably nine years of geospatial experience working with elected officials in the state of Louisiana, mostly around real estate property taxes and assessments.

They have to know the parcels and the boundaries, and ultimately, when Sammy and I started building this, was confusing on the geospatial side of things. We built the game. Atlas Empires. Nobody knows us for Atlas Empires. I had an idea, and Sammy had an idea.

He is a gamer. He played something called Civilization. We saw Pokemon Go. I had all of this map data in my head, like flashbacks to selling distressed real estate. And I'm like, it's not that hard to put a map in a game engine. And rightfully so, there were third-party companies that were already doing it.

Atlas reality. Went from originally being service interactive. We were building anything that paid the bills, we would build it for other people. And then we transitioned because, like I joked earlier, I thought building video games for people would be fun, but I was wrong. Building anything for other people is not really fun.

So, we pivoted right around the time that Niantic released Pokemon Go, and we just so happened to have all of the experience required to build location-based games. So we are a location-based gaming company. Atlas Empires is our first game. It was a commercial success. It's still available on the App Store in Google Play.

But, we started to listen to this Web three movement, and there's, depending on which side of the fence you're on. I'm in the middle. I'm a technologist. I appreciate what the blockchain is. I love the concept of smart chain s, smart contracts, and programmability. I hate everything about the web-based gaming space.

I'm not a speculative investor. I don't care about Dogecoin. None of that interests me, but virtual real estate and playing to earn were things that made me say, Whoa, wait a minute. These gamers are playing a game, and they're earning something of value. That's not just the skin. There's a marketplace; there's an actual economy to exchange these coins for cash.

Really? That's like what I took away was cash. I don't care about tokens. If those tokens don't have any real-world value, then I'm not interested. So anyhow, we built Atlas Empires. We pivoted based on what we learned from the Web 3 movement. And we built the only one as of right now, off-chain.

So, when I say off chain, there's no crypto, nothing. It's fiat-based. We pay in USD right now. Virtual real estate platform. So location-based technology is at our heart. We never thought when we started the business that we'd be building a hybrid between Clash of Clans and Pokemon Go known as Atlas Empires.

I didn't think we'd be building a virtual real estate platform. If you had asked me four years ago what the heck that was, I would've been like, I have no idea.

How Atlas Reality Decodes the Virtual Real Estate

Trudy Rankin: So, just to explain that just a little bit, not the game side, but just the virtual real estate side of things talk a little bit about that and some of the uses that people might have.

Beau Button: So, there are kind of two types of virtual real estate. And I'll start with the one that we're not, which is that it is completely made up. It's an environment- potentially even a planet- that's designed by game or level designers.

Land is a fixed resource, which is similar to the fact that Earth has a limited amount of resources. Yes, we can go to Mars. So, like we can. Keep moving to other planets if we so choose. But what a lot of the virtual real estate platforms are relying on is fomo. Fear of missing out.

You've got these big brands that are convinced that blockchain, Web 3, and all of that kind of lump together with virtual real estate is the future. In the metaverse, people are going to be putting goggles on to go shopping virtually for products. And I'm not saying that's not going to happen. It's here; it's going to happen, but I am absolutely convinced it's not the future.

It's a terrible user experience. And I don't want to be a part of a product or an industry that doesn't promote getting out of the house and actually going to interact with humans. But anyhow, that's the first type of virtual real estate where it's a piece of land in a game. In essence, it's a virtual world that doesn't have any relationship to the real world.

So, when you go to some address on this virtual real estate platform, that address doesn't actually exist in reality, whereas us and one other competitor, our closest competitor, are called Upland. They also use real maps. So, this is standard geospatial data. So if you go to Google Maps or fill in the blank, any mapping platform you choose to use, we're leveraging that same data and then all we're doing is, we're not subdividing it like your assessor would, and we're not doing like plots and parcels. It's just too granular and quite frankly, too confusing. We chose to just subdivide the entire globe into little bitty squares that are roughly 30 feet by 30 feet. And we sell those. And then the next natural question is why on earth, no pun intended, would anybody want to buy this virtual real estate? What we've done is we've built a business model that we have several revenue sources, if we could talk about that in, if you want in a minute. But ultimately the land that you own generates virtual rent. And that's another whoa, where's this money coming from?

What's virtual rent? It's not cash, it's not USD, it's virtual rent that you can exchange and basically redeem for cash once you get to a certain threshold. The threshold today is $5 just like in a lot of games. The land has rarity. There's a common piece of land, there's an epic piece of land, a legendary, a rare, et cetera, and each one of those generate a certain amount of rent per second.

The way I like to explain it is the minute you buy that land Atlas reality becomes your tenant, and we're paying you that rent. Now, where does that money come from? We can't con, we, we're not an investment company, we're a gaming company. So I can't talk about it in the context of that rent is a return on your investment.

That initial sale is an, it's not insured. At the end of the day, it's a game, but long story short is we're just not greedy with our revenue. We take the revenue from the land sales, from in-app ads, and then we have a platform we called Amp Atlas Merchant Platform, which is really the most important piece of our metaverse because it connects the real world to the virtual world.

So you get rewarded for doing things in real life in the virtual world. But we take that revenue and we manage it in a less greedy way than most. Companies do in, a capitalistic society is most of 'em, it's revenue, it's profit. Let's distribute it to the shareholders. Let's do this and that.

What we decided to do was build our own treasury, and all that simply means is we invest a percentage of our revenue in the market. We manage it ourselves and we grow that. And then that's what funds the virtual rent. Wherever we get revenue, we put money into a treasury, we grow it. Again, from the games perspective, we can't say that.

So if you play Atlas Earth, you now know a little bit about how the sausage is made. That's what backstops that virtual rent.

So I just to clarify, when you talk about the treasury, you're talking about a treasury inside the game.

Technically that's inside the organization, so there's no mention of a treasury in Atlas Earth.

But if you didn't know, it's very easy for someone to look at how the game works and instantly say it's a Ponzi scheme. Land cost $5 and you can't cash out. Until you get to $5 of virtual rent. So if we didn't take that money and save some of it to basically, if you think about it from an accounting perspective on our balance sheet, every piece of land generates a certain amount of rent per second.

That's a liability. You owe that person that rent. Now, if they don't get to $5, you'll never realize that expense. We could, I have some assumptions on how many people are ever gonna get to $5. But the fact is to date we've cashed out, meaning there's been enough people to get to $5. We've cashed out almost a half a million dollars of cash.

So it's not just whoa, nobody's ever gonna get to $5. There are people getting to $5. But that treasury is what we do internally. Our C F O Rich basically takes, like I said it's a relatively simple formula. How much money do we need for operating expenses? How much money do. We need for marketing growth, et cetera.

And we have a pretty healthy, percentage of that we then take and deploy into the market in relatively, they're not super conservative, but they're not also volatile. We're not buying, Bitcoin and Doge or anything like that. We do have some of that because you never know it's a sound bet if you just put a little bit in there.

But we grow that money and all that is really our revenue. Like any business could do this. It doesn't have to be virtual rent. It's how could you give your customers cash? If you're just taking cash and that cash is not growing, you could just sh it's a profit share if you don't grow it.

But we're taking a percentage of our profit and growing it even more, and then sharing some of that back with the players.

What Atlas Reality Sees As The Future Of Gaming Economics

Trudy Rankin: Okay. Yeah, no, that's an interesting model. It'd be interesting to, to talk to a company who uses that outside of a gaming sort of a model. Yeah. It would be a fun discussion.

Just, and we may talk about that a little bit more, but I just want to just talk a little bit more about the, from the perspective of the gamer or the person who's playing the game. And you talked about sort of ways to Game and earn money. What other ways within a game like Atlas reality can you actually go in there and earn money like cash?

Beau Button: Absolutely. So right now the only vehicle to earn cash is to own land that generates rent per second, and you let it accrue up once you get to $5. We have people that wait till $50. They don't, some people, the minute they get to five, they want to make sure that it's real. So they cash out and they're like, oh my, I got a $5 deposit into my checking account, or my Venmo or PayPal.

This is real. So then they'll basically double down the name of the game for us right now is that rent per second. It's static based on the type of land and the type of land you get when you buy it is unknown. It's random. So you might get a rare or a legendary, which generates slightly more than the ones below it.

So the more land you own, the more rent per second you accrue, which is gonna get you to that $5 threshold sooner rather than later. We provide mechanisms in the game to accelerate that rent per second. And the spirit of what we do again, is we make money. We decided to share a little bit of that money back with the end user.

Imagine if Facebook did that like this is, it would be ground, it would be. Earth shattering, but it's just not in their dna. Like they're taken and taken and taken. Where we decide, it's this is interesting. People want a passive income. And I'm not saying you could pay your car note using Atlas Earth, but five to $10 a month for a lot of people, as evidenced by our community really is important.

Maybe they're buying their cigarettes, or, forgive me, I'm in New Orleans. People buy alcohol, so maybe you go buy your bloody Mary with this $10 that you used or you earned in the game, but. If we show you an ad, we make a little money, we then take a percentage of that money, we put it back into the treasury, we grow it, and that also feeds into the system.

So the spirit is genuinely passive income from basically playing a game. And anytime that we make money, that feeds into the treasury, which allows us to give you more money. So if you watch 50 ads a day, we made more money off of you than we made somebody who made two, you're gonna make more money and your virtual rent per second's gonna accrue faster.
You'll get to $5 sooner.

Trudy Rankin: So my brain's going. Okay. Okay. I gotta, I just gotta ask. So do you measure the number of ads that people see, or is it, oh, so you do, so it's about participation. So we'll just …

Beau Button: Yeah, they're 100% opt-in. So these are what we call incentivized video or incentivized reward ads.

So there's no ads that just magically appear in the game. It's completely ad free. If you go to the store, we present you, so we, you have an in-game currency called Atlas bucks. That's what you. Earn. When you watch an ad, you can watch an ad and get two Atlas bucks or you could spend $5 and buy a hundred Atlas bucks.

We have a lot of people who just come into the game and buy the in-game currency using cash. And most games you would refer to these folks who are spent at hundreds of dollars as whales. They're not in it to basically receive passive income. They have a lot of disposable in disposable income and one of the game loops that we built to help them out, Is, you can become the president of the country if you own the most land, or you can become the governor or the mayor.

So there are a lot of people who are just playing this back and forth competition, just buying land, not really concerning themselves with the passive income component. So that's where the game loop is. But the majority and I say it's the majority, this is for me I manage the Discord community in the Reddit subreddit.

They're in it because they need $10 and it's not that they want, this is, and we're in, United States here it's sad if you think about it, but like these are folks who are doing what they're playing Atlas Earth, but they're also the same people who have apps like Get Upside.

Any app that you can install and be rewarded. Either a cash rebate or if you're walking like, I didn't know this was a thing. There's a few apps that reward you in basically gift cards for using your pedometer, and they'll show you ads for health and fitness related products. This is that same cohort of people who are just doing everything and.

Anything within their control to earn an extra a hundred dollars a month across several apps. And what Sami and myself are trying to do is build out more opportunities to really allow them to do that. I would love to be able to provide a platform where people aren't just watching ads and competitively buying land, but they can earn, 60, 70, 80, a hundred dollars a month.

We've got some really lofty goals. We even talked about universal basic income in healthcare. We have a group of over two and a half million people who are in this game. And like I said, some of them are whales of a small percentage, but a lot of 'em are just grinding out to make five to $10 of passive income each month.

Trudy Rankin: Yeah. So my brain's going, is there something that could, that, is there a way that. You could put that group of people to set them towards some sort of purpose.

Beau Button: Absolutely. So we're a location-based game and we're showing ads. We're not really leveraging the fact that it's a location-based game.

So one of the things that we've been toying with internally is you've got all of these cities that are dependent upon tourism, that have budgets to, to basically market. So how can we leverage the eyeballs and the desire to earn money? But with also something that's not watching ads, that pains me.

That's the one element of our business that I lose sleep over. It's can we educate 'em? Can we give them, is there a quiz? Is there I don't want you to fill out a survey. I don't want you to watch an ad. We have to do that to get this moving. But I'd love for us, and this is something that's in motion to figure out how we could actually do something good and educate.

It's, you earn money. So financial literacy there, there has to be an opportunity, if it's a grant or something where we have a budget and we pay these folks, if we get 2 cents for watching an ad, I'm sure there's a way, if we get in front of the right people, we can actually get funding. Private.

I'm not looking for a handout from the government. It's a for-profit business. But yes, that is something that we're trying to crack. We're not close, but on the opposite side of the monetization. So the land sales and the ads, That's the core right now, but I had mentioned earlier our Atlas merchant platform, so it's just like any cash back rewards program.

If you use your debit or credit card you'll own points. And those points, there's secondary markets. It's crazy. If you have air miles, you can sell 'em. It's. It feels sleazy to be honest with you, but we have a direct relationship with Visa and MasterCard and we have relationship with about 15 nationwide merchants in the United States.

And what that allows our players to do is to enroll their visa or master credit card into the game. Sounds daunting. Like why would I ever give a game my credit card? You don't need to give us your address, your verification code, or your zip. We just need the 16 digits. We then send that to Visa and MasterCard, and then in the game you have missions and says, go buy, food from Burger King or Popeye's, or fill in the blank.

For every dollar you spend, you get rewarded within game currency. This is not changing beha. It is changing behaviors because you might go to Burger King if you know you're gonna get Atlas Bucks instead of going to McDonald's because you're not getting Atlas bucks. But at the end of the day, you're already gonna buy gas and food and groceries.

So we're trying to focus and grow that much faster than it's hard because you have to get in front of these big businesses. It's getting easier as we establish ourselves. But when we first launched it was just like who in the world is Atlas Reality and what is the metaverse? But I think by the end of the year we'll probably have 30 or 40 merchants, ideally some gas, some fuel.
That was a big success. We did a relation, we had a relationship with Speedway, which is a nationwide gas station. We sent them, I think it was like three and a half million dollars of sales resulted from our in-game missions. So these are people who would've gone to Chevron Texaco Shell Station, but decided to go to Speedway because they knew, and Americans like these big F two 50 pickup trucks that have 40 gallons.

And if you're getting 10 AB for every dollar, it's man, I just filled up at the gas station, which I needed to do anyway, but now I got five free parcels of land. I didn't have to spend any extra money. Yeah, There's absolutely, we're leaving a lot on the table, and I'm, that's one of the things I'm very passionate about is how we can leverage this and show less ads, still make money and reward the players with an education.

I don't know what we could teach 'em, but look, there's a lot that needs to be taught.

Trudy Rankin: It's interesting. I'm curious because if you've, pardon me, you've divvied up, the territory or the, all of the space on the globe. You've got a finite resource. What do you do when you run out of finite resource or space?

Beau Button: Yeah, thankfully, 30 by 30 allows for us to have an exorbitant number of parcels. We're only launched in the United States today. We will be moving to Canada, Australia, and then New Zealand by the end of the year. But just like in the real world we're clearly not out of land, but the secondary market What's the impetus for buying land today?

If you buy it in a highly trafficked area, like if you open Atlas Earth in Las Vegas, Los Angeles, or at any airport, There are a lot of people who buy land there, and it's either because it's super convenient or they're speculating that the location of that land will directly impact its future value.

So location. Right now there's nothing you can do with that land. You can't build on it. You can't. Play a game with another person on it. So what we're feverishly working on behind the scenes is this evolution of, all right, we've sold it in the primary market. Now we want players to be able to build on it.

If you own 50 pieces of land and you want to build a castle, let's build a castle with some very intuitive 3D tooling. I don't want anybody to have to know how to. 3D modeling software is just, it's crazy when you watch somebody model something, it's man, I can't do that. So we're focusing on the user experience there.

We want anybody that knows how to drag a mouse and click on the keyboard to be able to design something in 3d and. Initially the secondary market will be driven by it's not just land anymore. It's a trophy. It's something that someone built. It could have taken them 10 hours or 10,000 hours, but now it's something that everybody sees.

There's opportunities for us in the game. If you own a business, maybe you design something that looks like your business, you put a billboard. So that secondary market, I think is what's really gonna unlock this. And then ultimately we're going to allow, This is where the metaverse, or what we call internally, the micro verse really comes into this you've got this space.

It's location based. We have brands. What if we could, instead of being like from this bird's eye monopoly view, just looking at land that you own, what if I could click on a building and enter that building and have a fully interactive, real-time experience with voice and have many games and like a. A meeting room of sorts.

I'm not suggesting we do zoom in, in Atlas Earth, but this is what we're seeing in like virtual reality like rec room and these other games where people are just meeting up in virtual spaces and talking and, I played a paintball game with my son in virtual reality, but it went from him being in his room, me being in my room, everybody gets their own room.

You can design it to us playing paintball in virtual reality. And I'm like, We could facilitate that. So it's not just virtual real estate and the land value may be completely appended upon what you're able to build on it. If you're creative, maybe instead of, you bought it for five, maybe you could sell it for 500.

And that, I'd love to allow people to sit from, I'm in the comfort of my apartment in New Orleans. If I could sit here and design things in the metaverse and make a passive income, like this is what's power in the gig economy. Nobody really wants to drive an Uber or a Lyft, but it's like sometimes you have to.

It's an interesting concept.

How Atlas Reality's Innovative Business Model Benefits Consumers

Trudy Rankin: And I guess one quick follow up question before we wrap things up, and that is, is that in terms of the game, it's like there's some other games that I've heard about, read about that you can, you, there's like a peripherals sort of a market where you can, people in the game who playing the game can create things, objects. Tools, whatever for other people inside the game and sell those. Is that part of what you do or part of what you're planning to do?

Beau Button: Absolutely. So the inspiration for that, it predates the metaverse conversation in web three. It's from Linden Labs Second Life. It's a legitimate economy and it's by far the best implementation of anything close, like to a metaverse. It's just, and they're getting back into the game, no pun intended. The, there's a the founder of that company has a white paper that just slays anything that has come out in the last five years about how it all should work. But absolutely. Part of that, like I had mentioned many games in these like micro verse experiences. I don't want us to have to curate that. If some basic programming or if you understand there's a, Google invented this graphical programming concept called blocky. I would love for people… like this is like Roblox. Roblox is a game engine that has a game engine.

People build, like my daughters love Roblox. Now, I'm not suggesting we're gonna compete, we're, that's not our end goal, but absolutely user generated content. If you can build these 3D objects and put 'em in a marketplace, obviously as the host of that marketplace, we're gonna take a small percentage, but like the world is your oyster, go ahead and design 'em and publish 'em and sell 'em.

And it's not like you have to make a thousand of 'em. If you want to sell a thousand of them, you make it once and you could just sell it to everybody. That's the beauty of the Fortnite model. I'm envious. It's like they made one skeleton costume and from my three kids they made $60 and all somebody had to do was copy the.

Bits from, actually they probably didn't even copy the bits. It's one collection of bits. It's a byte array somewhere in the cloud that just says these three people own the same thing and it's $60. Really, guys? That's crazy.

Trudy Rankin: Which is pretty impressive. And it there, there's a whole lot more in terms of the conversation around playing in virtual reality to earn money and turning that, especially if it's a passion of yours or something you really enjoy doing into something that can either bring in a little bit of cash or maybe even at some stage help you earn a living. So I think the world's changing in that space.

This space has been here for a while now. Second Life's been around for a while and other games. But it's just an interesting concept that kind of was talking about gaming to earn. Was around for a little while and then it disappeared off the radar and now it's coming back. It's going through that usual pathway where it's hyped up and then it's rubbish and then it actually, people start to actually really do it.

But I really enjoy just learning about things that people are doing to build businesses. Different types of business models, different ways of looking at the world and things like that. So I've really enjoyed talking with you, Beau, and just learning more about it. If people were interested in just finding out more about, the game or what you do or interested in getting in touch with you yourself, where would they go?

Beau Button: Yeah, if you want to learn more about Atlas Earth, you can go to dub dot atlas or just go to the iOS app store, apple App Store Google Play, and just search for Atlas Earth. You could also find Atlas Empires if you're interested in talking to me. I. I steer clear of most social networks social media networks.

I'm the lurker, but I am pretty active on LinkedIn. Do not hesitate to send me a connection request. Just put a little message that says, Hey, look, I heard you talking. I have some questions. I get a lot of solicit or unsolicited Hey, do you need a software engineering team in Bangalore and this, and I'm like, no, but thank you.

But yeah, that's the best place. Or you could follow me if you don't have any questions, but you're interested. I do talk a lot. If you go back about four months, there's a lot of content on LinkedIn that I shared about my kind of perspective on web three. I'm talking less about that now because I think I'm starting to beat a dead horse.

People see it, but I'm talking a little bit about, honestly, the most difficult part of my job is hiring, finding people and it was difficult pre pandemic, but it's more complicated now. So I'm start of pivoting and talking more about like, how do you build a team? We're a 30 person company, so we're not tiny, but it's difficult.

Trudy Rankin: Yes. And I think that goes across the board, like different countries have the same problem. Where it is tricky finding the right people, which is one of the. benefits I think, of being able to work remotely. We could talk about remote work for a long time maybe.

Beau Button: Yes ma'am.

Trudy Rankin: Maybe it's something we get back together again and chat about in the future.

But for right now, it's just been really lovely talking with you.

Beau Button: Likewise.

Trudy Rankin: And just thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Beau Button: Thank you for having me. I appreciate you. You have a good one.

Trudy Rankin: You too.