Listen to this podcast Ep. 115: How Having A Podcast Can Help You Grow Your Business Even If You’re An Introvert With Cliff Duvernois

Interviews, strategy and advice for building your online business with your host Trudy Rankin.

Trudy Rankin: Welcome to the Online Business Launchpad podcast. I'm your host, Trudy Rankin. And today I have Cliff Duvernois with me, who is someone who has started a podcasting agency. And he's going to tell you more about that in a little bit.

But he has an interesting approach to podcasting and working with podcasters that when I first heard him talk about it on another podcast, I thought that's really interesting. I'd really like Cliff to come onto my podcast and just share that with you because it's a slightly different take on the way I've heard other people talk about it. It resonates with me and it actually fits in with my experience of how I've experienced being a podcaster.

And Cliff is actually a member of a mastermind that I'm part of through SPI Pro. So once again, you're going to meet somebody who's part of that SPI Pro community that I talk about a lot, because you know that I think community's really, really important. And it's just really lovely to have you here today, Cliff.

Cliff Duvernois: Thanks for having me, Trudy. I'm excited to be here.

Trudy Rankin: Yeah. So we meet once a fortnight and we talk about all sorts of things and we do hot seats, hot seats for each of us. And we do all kinds of interesting things, have interesting discussions and try to help each other out.

And I've been interested in watching the journey that you've been going through with your agency. So before we get stuck into that side of things, though, and you share sort of your take on podcasting, can you just share a little bit with our listeners kind of your background, where you're from and how you've gotten to where you are today?

Cliff Duvernois: Certainly. So as you can tell by my accent, I'm about as American as you can get. Born in the USA, I was born and raised in a state called Michigan and I spent some time living in California and California actually is where I started to get my marketing chops. I had left my cubicle job working at a Fortune 500 company. And I struck out on my own.

I was really interested to see if I could make this entrepreneurial thing work. I had a lot of friends who were entrepreneurs and were seeing really good success with it. And I wanted to do that too. I wanted to really just stretch myself to see what I was capable of. So as I'm on my marketing journey, I had a business coach who was really helping me out.

And one of the things that I was focused on, which every business owner should be focusing on, is what makes me different. How do I stand out in the marketplace? You have all these people out there that are yelling. Pick me, pick me, pick me. But how do you really stand out? So when I talked to my business mentor and I said, yeah, how do I stand out?

He said, start a podcast. I had no idea how to start a podcast. I had listened to podcasts before, but the mechanics behind it was a complete mystery to me. And this was circa 2016. So it wasn't nearly as prolific as it was today. But back then he said, Hey, you know, do a geographically based podcast, focus on that.

And I said, well, okay. So I went through the mechanics of getting the podcast set up. I went on to YouTube. I watched a ton of tutorials. And I like to tell people, I learned how to do it incorrectly because that's why my first podcast went into pod fade, i.e. I gave up after 14 episodes because it was just way too much work.

However, episode 14, I got a high ticket client. That is the only reason why I knew this podcasting thing could work. I just didn't understand how. Like, what did I do? What was the magic sauce? What odd combination of things came together in order for me to use my podcast to get a high ticket client.

And it would take a couple of years of launching a new podcast. I would get stuck in the same routine that I did before. And I would give up after 10 or 12 episodes, then I would pivot my business. I'd launch a new podcast, again, 10, 12 episodes, and I would get burned out cuz it was consuming days of my week to do one podcast episode. Finally, I joined this podcasting group and I remember while I was in there, there was people that were in marketing, people that were in sales and the one person I decided to talk to was a time management expert.

I'm talking to her and she says, well, let's go over your podcast process. And I thought, well, she knows a thing or two about podcasting, but you know, how could she help me? That's when all of a sudden I started to see that podcasting did not have to be this big, huge time waster of a week, like literally spending 4, 5, 6 hours in pre-production. You spend an hour or so recording an episode, and then you spend eight hours editing an episode. That's like two or three days of your week gone.

And by working with these people, I figured out not only how to condense that process down to within just a few hours, but working with the marketing and sales people, I really started to understand how podcasting could really help me to be able to grow my business and how I got that first client way back in the day.

And when I started applying that methodology, I started getting clients and I said, okay, now that I've got a repeatable model here, I would love to go out and teach other entrepreneurs who have a story to share, who have a message to share how they can leverage podcasting, to be able to grow their business.

It does not take millions of dollars. You do not need to spend $5,000 on equipment or any of that other stuff. You just have to be a little bit friendly, a little bit outgoing is all you really need, and you can get your podcast going.

How Perfectionism Hinders The Journey Of Podcasting

Trudy Rankin: So I'm gonna ask you a really quick question because this particular thing seems to pop up again and again and again. Do you have to be an extrovert to use this technique that you use?

Cliff Duvernois: Absolutely not. I tell people that I am probably one of the biggest introverts that you would ever meet. I come across as an extrovert, cuz it's real easy for me to sit inside of my little office here and talk to you. The only difference is I've got a microphone that's here.

Now. I will admit when I first started, the introvert did play a big part in it, but the worst part for me was overcoming perfectionism. I had to be perfect. I was looking at people that were, you know, had like the top rated podcasts that were out there. I was listening to them. I was listening to people who had been interviewing for 40 years.

And I'm thinking to myself, that's where you have to be, Cliff. That's the game you have to play. That's the level you need to be at. And so when I sat down to do these interviews, I wasn't perfect at all. And what I did is I found myself in this trap of going back, oh, I don't like that. So I would try to rerecord it and then it wouldn't sound right.

My perfectionism was kicking in. so moral of the story is that the perfectionism thing for me anyways became the hardest thing to overcome. And once I got past that, podcasting actually has become fun. And it's really easy for me to just sit here now. I just map out a little story, get on the microphone. I share it, upload it, and the world can hear it.

Trudy Rankin: I think that's really, really similar to the experience that a lot of podcasters or would be podcasters have, I love that term pod fade, you know, it's just like, yeah, it's just like, yeah, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. And then it just is, it is a lot of work.

It takes a lot of time to do the editing. And if you were into the perfectionism side of things, which I think a lot of other people are, which I do think stops people starting a podcast. . Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's definitely, there's nothing that kills the joy of it quicker than having to rerecord something 10 times before you like the sound of it.

It just, yeah.

What Is Pod Fade And What's The Biggest Cause Of It?

Cliff Duvernois: I think that part of the reason why, and this would actually be a really good topic for you and I to discuss, I think a couple of the big reasons why pod fade happens, i.e., we've all come across the podcast that's just gone silent after 10 episodes. And we like it.

We're listening to it. We're like, oh, this is the greatest thing ever. Why haven't they put out any new episodes, but for most entrepreneurs that are out there, there's a couple of things. And this was the really…. the mind shift that I had to go through in my podcasting journey. And I know you've heard me talk about this journey and I rail on it all the time in our mastermind group.

These people, these entrepreneurs that start a podcast and give up after 10 episodes. There's two things that happen. Number one, obviously it's the perfectionism thing. They gotta be perfect. That's a big thing. But the second thing is that they are approaching podcasting like a podcaster. So what do I mean by that?

I'm glad you asked. A podcast in the strictest definition of English language. Yes. Podcaster is somebody who podcasts. I get that. But a podcaster is somebody who has built their business on top of podcasting. Right. Podcasting is their product. They need 10,000 downloads or a hundred thousand downloads of their episodes so that they can get sponsors.

And so that they can make money. They can do all these things. Podcasters have created probably about 90% of the podcasting courses that are out there. And what they teach you, how to do is to be a podcaster,. What they missed and what I missed was that I'm an entrepreneur with a podcast. That changes everything.

Once you've accept the fact that, Hey, you know what, I'm an entrepreneur. I have a podcast. I don't have three days a week to spend working on my podcast. I don't need to have a hundred thousand downloads. I don't have to wait 16 to 18 months before I could start to get any traction. So once I was able to let go of all of those quote unquote benchmarks, so to speak, like waiting 16 months, then all of a sudden I was like, well, what can I do with my podcast?

Breaking It Down Into Short, Medium And Long-term

Katrina Streatfeild: And I'd encourage people to be realistic here. Yeah? I mean, we're really talking about what would help you feel content. And that would align with your integrity so that you're feeling good about it. Yeah? If that makes sense? And then I think to invite people to think about, if that's the ultimate goal, is it short, medium or long term to actually achieve that?

And if it's a longer term goal, what the short and medium term goals would be to slowly begin to start doing things in the here and now, or in that timeline to work towards that, keeping your eye on that kind of ultimate goal of what you'd like to achieve.

And once they've done that to then think about what resources or other people they would need support they'd need to implement those short, medium and long term steps towards that ultimate goal in that era of their life. Bearing in mind all the while of the context, the current context and what, you know, the next little while we might guess would look like whether that goal is realistic under current circumstances and in our current context.

So just to go through a bit of a mapping, I guess, exercise to have a think about just helps people to put their thoughts on paper and do it in a way that they can keep track of and a record of that they can come back to semi-regularly and check in with and adjust just to keep their eye on the ball.

How To Use Podcast To Build Relationships

Cliff Duvernois: Right. If I let all that go, if I buck conventional wisdom, what can I do? And that's when I realized Cliff's first rule of podcasting is the ultimate relationship building tool. So now how can I use my podcast to go out and start building relationships that I need to help move my business forward?

Trudy Rankin: So that's an interesting concept because thinking about that term podcaster versus, you know, somebody who's an entrepreneur who uses podcasting as a tool is a little bit like, radio talk show hosts, a podcaster is just another way of having a voice out there and you're right, building your business on the podcasting.

So can you expand just a little bit on that whole concept of using podcasts as a way of building relationships and get a little bit into the more deeply into the why of that.

Cliff Duvernois: Sure. So if you think about it, you are an entrepreneur and you have a business. Now, if I were to ask you if there was like 10 people that you would like to have in your sphere, right? 10 people that you would like to build a relationship with that might be able to help your business with maybe do a partnership. Maybe work together on if I said, do you know 10 people, 99% of the time, any entrepreneur can name 10? Yeah. I'd love to have this person, this person, this person, this person, and it doesn't hurt to dream big, but also keep in mind too, that you want to connect with these people as well.

So maybe you have to shoot a little bit smaller, but who's somebody who could help my business? More importantly, how can I help them? When you start thinking that way, all of a sudden, you leave the world of networking behind and now all of your connections become strategic, right? Who can help me to move my business forward? Reach out to them and say, Hey Trudy, I've been listening to your stuff on social media.

I've been listening to your podcast, whatever it might be. I would love to interview you on my podcast. I would love to have you come and talk about X, Y, Z on my podcast. Let me know if you're available, it's just that easy. And now what you've done is rather than contact them and say, Hey, could I borrow 20 minutes of your time to talk to you? Which they're gonna say no. Through your podcast, you've reached out to them and said, Hey, I'd like to interview. You'll have a piece of collateral. You get access to my audience. And if you share my podcast with your audience, I get access to yours, but it gives you an opportunity to sit with these people for a half an hour or an hour.

And just talk to them just like you would talk to anybody else, learn more about them, ask them questions about their business and really build that relationship. Every time that I have done this without fail, every time. It's very easy for me to open up my email, type in that person's name and just send them a note and be like, Hey, I'm just checking in. How's everything going? Da, da, da.

I always get a response. Always. And of course I follow 'em on social. I like their post. I comment on their post and I do everything else like that. But these people now are all in my wheelhouse. So it makes it very easy for me now to come back and say, you know what, I'd love to be on your podcast, or, Hey, you were telling me about this, social media marketing kit that you have.

Could you jump on a call and let's talk about that. Or at the same point in time, Hey, you mentioned that you were having a problem with this. I think I might be able to help you solve that problem. Would you like to get on a call or whatever it is, but the podcast is the first step in that relationship, it just builds a relationship so fast.

And when that was the thing, when I was telling you about, when I take the blinders off and say, okay, what could I do with my podcast? Within the first 30 days of launching a podcast, you could have done 6, 12, 18 interviews with people you want to connect with. Share their interviews on podcast, this content, but now you've just expanded your network strategically, by the way, cuz you picked these people.

It's not like you just walked into a room and somebody walked up to you and handed you a business card and said, gimme a call. You strategically picked these people. So now you have these 18 people that are now in your wheelhouse. Congratulations. If you believe in your network is your net worth. You just boosted it by 18 successful people that you can now ask for advice, or, follow up with a phone call, have a coffee chat online, but it's just, so it's just become so powerful.

And this is not waiting 16 to 18 months. This is within the first 30 days that you can do this.

Trudy Rankin: I think that's a really powerful way of actually starting to build out your strategic relationships. It's interesting because first of all, that's one of the things that I've discovered with doing my podcast. Unintentionally, cause I didn't start out with the idea of building relationships. I started out with the idea that I needed to build content. This is my content creation engine. Which works. It works really well, but I also discovered, or should I say, and I also discovered exactly what you're talking about.

I've gotten to know people that I would've never gotten to know otherwise. I have people reach out to me and say, Hey, I'd love to be on your podcast. And sometimes they do it really badly and sometimes they do it really well, but the people that I've talked with, I've always walked away feeling like, wow, that person is amazing.

They've got something to share and they've, you know, they've basically been on this journey just the same as I am. And have they've got really, really important wisdom for everyone who's listening. And I think that's really powerful.

Transforming Expertise Into Sales Opportunities

Trudy Rankin: I do want to just just check in with you though, because I've had people reach out to me to be guests on their podcast.

And so without naming names at the end of the podcast interview, they turned it into just a flat out blatant. Hey, can I get you to hire me to do stuff, for whatever it is that they were… whatever their expertise was. And it's I, I felt blindsided a little bit.

It was just hang on. Did you want me on your podcast because you wanted to hear what I had to share? Or did you just want me on your podcast so that you could get to know me better and then hit me up for some work? So how would you address or if somebody was tipping that way in their mind and thinking maybe I should be doing that. How would you actually advise them in that situation?

Cliff Duvernois: So that's a great question because I know that particular scenario happens quite often and it's unfortunate. People hear that, oh, you know what? I can invite these people on my podcast and I'm just gonna give 'em a sales pitch. And you're right. The conversation almost feels dirty at the end of it when they oh yeah. Do it this and da, da da. Right? Because then exactly. You start thinking the same thing that all these other people, like the only reason why you interviewed me is cuz you wanted me to ask for the sale. Now when I talk about podcasting being an ultimate relationship building tool, that's exactly what it is.

With everything on the planet, you have the opportunity, as well as the person that you're bringing on the podcast to share with them a little bit about what it is that you do, but you don't have to be salesy about it. So what do I mean?

So a part of my process is that when my producer reaches out to people in her email signature, there's the call to action to whatever it is that we are doing. She doesn't push it. She doesn't say it. She just says,Hey, we would love to have you as a guest on our podcast. Cuz people look at email signatures. They do. I do all the time. I'm looking at them. And so we've got a really good call, strong call to the action. People click on it, they see the business, they see what we are.

The whole time I'm onboarding them for the podcast. Like giving them tips for a great interview. Make sure you bring, headset USB microphone. You should use things like that. Never once bring up the sales call. In the podcast we will reference the pain point that I'm going after. But again, the pain point is part of my podcast.

We talk about how you overcome the challenges of being an entrepreneur with a podcast. How do you grow it? How do you market it, how you do, and every single person has a different take on it, but we still cover that specific pain point. What I have found through experience is that when the interview is over, nine times outta 10 people will actually indicate if they're interested in moving forward.

Because by this point in time, I've had multiple touchpoints with them. I'm able to send them episodes that they can listen to it. They've heard my commercial, they've heard everything about it. And I've had some people that have been on my podcast that I've interviewed that during the interview very flat out just said, oh, and I have this other person that takes care of this. Cool. Mozel Tov. So I know that person isn't somebody that I'm gonna sales pitch to, right? So I just let it go. I'm not gonna sit there afterwards and be like, well, I know you said you had somebody, but I can beat their price. That's not what Cliff's about. I'm about the relationship. That is the most important thing.

And if this person that I'm interviewing, right. So, you know, let's say Trudy, I had you on my podcast, which I did.

Trudy Rankin: Mm-hmm

Cliff Duvernois: So I have you on my podcast, you share that podcast episode with your audience. And if somebody hears my ad in my podcast episode. And they like what I say, they like the questions that I'm asking. They like the advice that I've given out. They like the conversation you and I are having. And with you sharing it with your audience, you're kind of putting your stamp of approval that, Hey, this guy's a good guy. Then if people are interested, they can always click on through to the podcast.

They can listen to more episodes. They can visit the website as well. Join the email newsletter. Get all the freebies that come with it, that whole nine yards. So being pushy after the interview is something I just simply would not recommend. Every time that I've tried it I just, you just feel it, like, oh, you're just using me. It's just, I don't know. It's just dirty. So anyways with the people that I work with on their podcast, when we get to that point, I always have to tell 'em, you know, back off, if they are interested, they will let you know.

But just take it easy. It's the relationship that you want. You just got done doing an awesome interview with them. Keep the relationship going. Every time you email 'em included in your email signature, you could always say, Hey, if you know of somebody who's looking for this, please let me know, cuz you can do this, right?

If there's a way that I can help your business, let me know. And then they'll say, oh, well, if there's a way that you can help me with mine? Well, yes, there is. Actually, you could do da, da, da. So this is all part of that strategic networking that I was talking about before.

But you're absolutely right. It can get sleazy if you handle it the wrong way.

Trudy Rankin: Yeah. And it comes back down to intent. Are you there to develop the relationship? Are you there to just try and push for a sale?

Cliff Duvernois: Yep.

Trudy Rankin: And that's the bit that gets up people's noses, I think. And just makes it feel. Yeah. Just focusing on the relationship is I think the right way to go.

Success Story: How Cliff Duvernois Monetised His Podcasting

Trudy Rankin: I want to come back to something that you said a little bit earlier, cuz every podcaster or entrepreneur who has a podcast has a little bit of a different journey in how they've gotten to stuff. And I've mentioned mine a little bit. I started out with the reason behind starting a podcast was to create content and it's only been slowly that I've gotten to the Hey and I can actually monetize my podcast in other ways. You started out with straight away, you said at the end of your 14th podcast episode of your very first podcast series, you managed to pick up a client. Can you just talk a little bit about the process that you use in relation to your podcast for getting those types of clients and what other ways do you monetize what you do?

Cliff Duvernois: Certainly. So with my main podcast at that time, what it was that particular episode that I put out that convinced this person he wanted to work with me actually had nothing to do with my business. Believe it or not. So this is the power of podcasting. So let's take a step back.

Every single person that's out there and you've got a business, you've got competition. There's other people out there that can do what you're doing. Just like you can. There's just all kinds of people out there that can do it. What people are choosing is who they wanna work with. Right.

You can come up with, you could do other things like, oh, we've got the lowest price in town, or we're adding all this value and you can do all this other stuff. And that does have an impact. But the end of the day, it all boils down to the familiar, know, like, and trust. Do I know this person? Do I like this person? Do I trust this person?

What I did is in these podcast episodes is I'm interviewing people from the local community. Doing a great time. Everything else. On this particular episode … I committed to do an episode a week. For this particular episode what happened was, is I actually had to cancel my interviews because my sister passed away.

I had to fly from California back to Michigan, attend the funeral, made it back to California. I was just really busted up cuz I was actually very close to my sister. So when it came time to do the podcast episode, I had nothing ready. Nothing prepared.

So I reached out to my mentor and I said, Hey, I'm supposed to come out with an episode tomorrow. I don't have anything recorded. I don't know what to talk about. And he goes, well, why did you miss your interviews? And I said, well, cuz my sister passed away. He goes, well, then talk about that. Remember Cliff, you're human. Right. And you want people to know you, like you, trust you. So just get on there and talk about your sister. Talk about what she meant.

And I was like, well, okay. I didn't know. I never heard any other podcast or talk about their family. So I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna go ahead and do it. Got on the microphone, spent twenty, twenty five minutes talking about my sister, what she meant to me, some of my favorite memories growing up with her. What her passing meant to me. How it really hurt. How I really missed her.

And that was the episode. So I put that episode out there into the wild. Of course, I'm really shocked. It became the most downloaded episode of the series. Like people were just sharing that. I don't know how, don't know where, but it was the first time I'd ever broke the 100 download episode mark on a podcast episode before.

So it was very, very flattered by that. Well, when he reached out to me and said, Hey, I was just listening to your podcast episode, especially episode 14, you are the guy I wanna work with. I was like, well, great. So we sit down in the office. We're going through some paperwork and everything else. And finally, I had to ask him, I'm like, what was it about that particular episode that made you wanna work with me? And he said, well, he said, in that episode, you talked about how your sister had passed away. And a year ago, my mother passed away and her and I were really close. And when you were talking in that interview about what your sister meant for you? It reminded me so much about my relationship with my mother, and I knew that you understood what that was like, and I knew that you were the right person to work with. Blew my mind. Blew my mind

Discover The Art Of Storytelling As A Tool For Building Long Lasting Relationships Through Podcasting

Cliff Duvernois: Now, obviously I can't keep producing podcast episodes talking about people around me dying. Oh, my dog died when I was 10 years old. You know, I can't keep putting out that kind of stuff. But one of the things that I realized as time went by that it's important for your podcast to spend time, even if you have a purely an interview based podcast, which for my podcast, I do five interviews and then I do one solo episode.

Five interviews one solo episode, because I want not only for people to know me in an interview environment, but I want them to know who Cliff is. I want them to understand who I am as a person. What do I value? What are things that are important to me?

I also talk about things in there. Like my podcast framework. I'll go and I've got a framework that I use to get people results. We all have that. And I go, and I pick a piece off the framework and I'll spend 20 minutes talking about that one piece of the framework. How did I discover it? I share the story behind it, right, that I learned it in a book. Did somebody teach me, did I happen to just stumble upon this by pure accident? And I go through that entire thought process, how did I test it? How do I know that it works? How are my clients getting results with it?

So based on that model, there, the biggest component that you can do with your podcast, again that know, like, and trust factor, the KLT factor, is being able to step up and be able to produce an episode where you just talk about something. This Friday I'm coming out on my podcast, actually with a very personal episode of it, because I just went through something in my life that I felt had a very good story. And the end of it is all about mindset. But I just shared a very personal story and it is completely different from the main topic of the podcast. But I want people to kind of understand when you're dealing with Cliff, this is what you're getting. If you're going to, you know, invest in my program, if you're going to listen to the podcast, anything else, this is the kind of stuff that I'm talking about in there.

So by sharing these personal stories, this, these adventures that you go on really makes it a great way for people to follow you on your adventure. And like I said, to get to know like, and trust you. So, you know, with that being said, that's the key factor. That's the whole thing is not being afraid so much to be vulnerable, to share these little stories from your past. And how are you learned. And who are you today? What have you learned from this? Where did you stumble and fall? Where did you have your big successes? And being able to share that with your audience helps to build that connection.

Podcasting is the ultimate relationship building tool, not just from people that you're interviewing, but between you, the microphone and your audience.

How Important Are Podcast Downloads And Are They The Only Measure Of Success?

Trudy Rankin: Yeah. That is so true. I want to come back to something that you said as part of that story, and thank you for sharing that story with us. And that is, as you said, that 14th episode was your first one that sort of hit the hundred download sort of metric. For people who are just getting started with podcasting… and I hear this a lot in discussions, both with people that are thinking about podcasting and people who have just gotten started. And there's this real focus on it's almost like a, it's not quite a vanity metric, but it's almost like a success metric, but that people aren't quite sure that they can get and they get really depressed if they don't hit it.

And it's like, oh, I should be getting thousands of downloads on my podcast. And if I'm not getting thousands of downloads, I must be a failure. Can you just talk about that a little bit, based on your experience and the experience of the people that you work with and help. Kind of, what is the typical sort of trajectory or journey when somebody's just starting a podcast?

Cliff Duvernois: Trudy. This is a great question. And I'm glad you asked it, cuz I'm about ready to alleve a lot of stress that you might feel when it comes to your particular podcast. Before when I was talking about how approaching it as a podcaster, you're focused on how many downloads you get you're full well going in that it's gonna be 16 to 18 months before you start to see any real traction.

Once I let that go then podcasting all of a sudden took on a new form, a new shape for me. What I didn't realize in that first podcast. And it would take me about three or four podcasts to finally figure this out. Right? Cliff's first rule of podcasting, ultimate relationship building tool. When you use your podcast as a relationship building tool downloads don't matter.

Now I was just sharing with you before, about how, for instance, when I launched my newer podcast earlier this year, I had completed 20 interviews before my first episode ever launched. Right. Cause I believe in having the catalog of episodes ready to go.

That means on day one that I launched my podcast I now had 20 people that were strategic connections of mine already. And because of that, the podcast was already a success. I hadn't even published the first episode yet. And it was already a success. Why? Because I added all these people to my network. I already know who was interested to work with me. Maybe who needed a little bit more time. How can I help them? How can they help me? We share each other's stuff online, all without having a podcast episode published. Once I started releasing the episodes and getting more people into my wheelhouse.

Now I'm almost 50 episodes deep into my new podcast. I have created 75 new connections in my network and every one of them I can go back and email and I could either sit there, just ask 'em, Hey, how's everything going? I really like this post that you had online or better yet I share their post online or comment on it or like it, or do something else to help get more eyeballs on their content. And out of those 75 relationships, I've gotten invitations to be on 20 podcasts. So this is 20 audiences that I now was able to get in front of, and on top of that, I actually got two clients outta those 75 people. Didn't pay anything for 'em.

It was just, you know, using my framework that I was telling you about before. And they reached out to me like, okay, Cliff, I'm interested in learning more about the service that you do. Cool. Let's jump on a call and talk. So I got two clients out of that. I don't care about the number of downloads that I get. That's not a metric that I'm using.

Now eventually when I get to 16 months or 18 months, if I get to a hundred thousand downloads, you know what? That's great. You know, mazel tov, the more people that hear my message the better, but that's not my priority. My priority right now is to try to touch base with my ideal customer avatar, who by the way, listens to the podcast. Get my message in front of them and have them either say, oh, well, you know that Cliff, he's quite the talker. Okay. Click off. Or they're gonna say, I like that guy. I like his message. I like what he's saying. I like how he thinks. I want to check out something more. And then they come into my wheelhouse to get on my email list.

They download all my freebies, whatever that might be. So for, the people that I talk to about launching their podcast, it's always the same. Don't look at the download metrics. I really wish that they would hide them from you, but I know there's some hosting services out there that will actually email you and say, Hey, congratulations, you got 10 downloads, 25 downloads. So you can't get away from it, but don't be depressed.

And it goes back to this whole thing about what do you really consider a win? And sometimes we focus on the wrong item. It doesn't matter if you have 10,000 downloads or a hundred thousand downloads. If you're not getting any new business from it, what good is it?

Really at the end of the day, if nobody's signing up for your freebie, what good is a hundred thousand downloads out of your podcast? It's not. But now if you focus on it and say, you know what, I'm here about building the relationships. I want to connect with new people. I wanna get in front of their audiences.

I want to interview on other people's podcasts, which is a great way by the way, to get your own podcast out there. But I'm gonna get on these other podcasts out there. And who knows, maybe somebody's gonna raise their hand at say, I'm gonna it's a success. Absolute success. I'm very happy.

I could not tell you right now how many downloads my podcast is getting. The only time I ever like, even come close to seeing those numbers is when I log into Libsyn, upload the episode and say, I want you to publish on this date at this time, close the browser, move on. Don't look at the downloads. Don't even pay attention to it.

Cuz all I know is that somebody that I interviewed had a really cool story and I'm about to share that with the world. And they're gonna love it and they're gonna share it with their audience. Just like I will.

Trudy Rankin: I think that's a really healthy attitude to take because you can go for a long time doing everything possible in your power to try and raise the numbers.

And if you focus on the wrong success metric, you are right. Doesn't matter about the numbers. If it's not helping you grow your business then you're wasting your time in many respects. And that's a depressing thing, you know, you put all that work and effort into it and you sort of think, what! You've got to be able to make it mean something.

How You Can Speed Up The Time It Takes To Start A Podcast

Trudy Rankin: I want to come back to something that we've briefly touched on a little bit, and that is, is that the way that you help people with their podcasts.

Now there's different kinds of services when it comes to podcasting. I know that when I started my podcast, I knew that the only way I would be able to do it is that if I had somebody help me, because I knew it was a lot of work. You look at it and you just…

Because I can break things down into little details and systems and processes, and it's like, I can see that is gonna take a lot of work and effort. And I didn't have the time to go away and learn all the pieces that needed to be learned in order to go who hosts it. And how do you find out which host and how do you hook it all up and all that?

So I went out and got some help and basically shout out to Podcast Services Australia. They gave me a hand in helping me put together a package of 10 podcasts episodes. I did the work, I did the interviews and everything, but they helped with the editing. They helped with all the setup and then they taught me how to do it.

So when it comes to working with people who either don't have a podcast already, or they do have a podcast, how do you help them?

How Cliff Helps Entrepreneurs Start Their Own Podcast

Cliff Duvernois: So I do that in two ways and it really depends on the comfort level of the person. So I have a framework that's in beta testing right now where it's like a do it yourself model.

Basically what it is that I teach people, I teach entrepreneurs, who want to have a podcast, not podcasters, entrepreneurs with a podcast, this is how you get your podcast off the ground quickly. This is how you can edit your podcast episode in under 30 minutes. Every trick that I have learned over the years is in this package.

It's not something I would wanna stick out on YouTube, cuz I'm not interested in the views. I'm not interested in getting people to watch the commercials or anything else like that. It is just purely, like if you wanna get something up and running quickly within 72 hours, this is how it goes.

There are some podcasters that I understand out there, or sorry, some entrepreneurs that are out there that want to kind of fast track what it is that they're doing, or they don't wanna take the time to learn it. Cuz one of the chief objections that I oftentimes hear from people is that, you know, when I'm talking to them is they say, well, I'm not an audio engineer.

Congratulations. Neither is Cliff. And I have no desire to be an audio engineer. I'm an entrepreneur with a podcast. So I've got a framework. I've got a system in place for editing podcast episodes that's actually really smooth. It's very quick.

So I had people reach out to me like, Hey, is this something that you could do for me? And I thought, man, maybe there's a business model here. So that's when I created Podcast Pipeline to help people that have a podcast episode who don't wanna mess around. I don't wanna mess around with editing. I don't wanna come up with show notes. None of this stuff. So we did that all as a complete package, just to help them get up and running, because like you said, a lot of people are more focused on finding the who that they want to connect with. And then when they connect with them, interview them, get the episode recorded and then, move on. I've got more important things to do. I got payroll to make, I got a customer delivery to worry about. I've got this, I got that. I don't have eight hours to edit an episode.

So that's the second part of the puzzle for the entrepreneur that you know, who believes that the podcasting is the best tool they're hearing.

They start thinking, you know what, I wanna start building relationships. Then that's what the service does is it takes probably the hardest part of the podcasting, the editing, the show notes, and just provides it to 'em on a silver platter. So those are the two things that we do.

Trudy Rankin: And those are really useful because it is, like I said, it is a lot of work to actually try and do that.

The Importance Of Storytelling In Show Notes

Trudy Rankin: I'm going to pick up one more thing before we bring this to a close, because as usual we run outta time so quickly. Actually have two questions. I really do want to ask both these questions. The first one is, is that when you do the editing and the show notes, or with the framework that you're talking about, how much focus is put on the story side of things, in terms of creating show notes, that people are interested in skimming through quickly to understand if they actually want to listen to the podcast.

Cliff Duvernois: Ah, so a great question. So what we do when we're creating the show notes, a style of show notes that we do, and keep in mind, there is no one way to do show notes. It's going out and finding show notes and saying, I really like this style or this pattern, which is what I did. I went to the top podcasts in iTunes to see what they were doing.

And basically, if you look at any interview that you're doing out there, it's not just a single story. But it's actually a series of stories. Like every time that you ask a question, I tell a little story, right? Every single time that we go through. So when we're doing our show notes, what we do is we look for the questions.

What's the question asking, how did the person answer it? And then we just come up with some kind of copyright title, you know, three ways that you can use podcasts to grow your network. Right. Would be one of the items for your show notes. And then what we do is we add a timestamp to it. So if somebody's looking through the show notes and they see that timestamp, and they're like, you know what?

I don't have five hours to listen to Cliff. But I got five minutes to listen to this one bullet point. So they click on it. Boom, go right to that second in the episode where you're asking the question and then I spend a couple minutes answering it. So when we're talking about shownotes on our end, that's how we take the actual interview itself and break it up into its chief components. So to speak, cuz different parts of the interview are going to resonate with different people. From there, we kind of reverse engineer and say, okay, so we've got this entire episode. What are the three main points of the episode, right? What's lesson one, lesson two, lesson three. And that from there gives us the podcast description.

So we all know when we look at a podcast, it says in this episode, Trudy interviews Cliff, and they talk about main point 1, main point 2, main point 3. So this right here is where you first off get your SEO juice, cuz people are looking for this kind of information. And the second off, the people that are looking at the podcast episode will very quickly determine, Hey, this is something I really wanna do.

Cliff's got a different definition of what podcasting is or how it can grow. I'm interested in this, cuz all I hear is that it's all about downloads, but this cat's saying something different. So let's go ahead and do that. So that's the process that we use when we go through and create show notes.

And of course this requires a transcript which we provide, but this going through this transcript and picking out those bullet points and then reverse engineering everything from there all the way up to the title of the episode. And of course, anything of this can be changed if the client doesn't like it.

But just reverse engineering, letting the story speak for itself and then start to come back from there to go to the title. We don't, we never start with the title. We always start with the interview. What's the story. What's the key points and then reverse engineer from there.

Trudy Rankin: Now it makes a lot of sense because doing the show notes is the place where you have to use the most energy brain to try and corral everything into just a very short space of just a few words, and it's gotta be enticing enough to get people to want to listen to the podcast. So that's critically important.

How To Simplify Podcasts And Youtube Strategy

Trudy Rankin: One more quick question. You just briefly mentioned YouTube and it's an ongoing question in my mind at this point is whether you should put either parts of a podcast interview, if you do it in video, or the whole podcast interview on. What's your thoughts on that?

Cliff Duvernois: So everybody's gonna say something different. So this is just Cliff's humble opinion. I am a big fan of breaking the episode down into bite-sized chunks, because really at the end of the day, when people are on YouTube, they treat it just like Google.

It's a search engine. So they're looking for something, right? How do I, you know, Facebook ads, how do I create Facebook ads? How do I. How do I create TikTok videos? How do I do you know anything else? Like I've gone in there. I figured out how to fix my brake problem on my car from YouTube. I watched a three minute video on how to do it, I went out and fixed my brakes.

This is what people are looking for. So before, when I was talking about the show notes, breaking it down, like each question that you ask this now gives you potentially 5, 7, 8 small videos that you can now share onto YouTube, that you can SEO the daylights out.

And when people are watching this, you ask the question, I start to answer it. They're either gonna like it, or they're gonna click off. But when you do this, and this is something really interesting with the YouTube algorithm, they actually track how long people watch your videos. So if somebody watches two minutes of a 30 minute interview, YouTube is gonna scrap that video.

They're not gonna show it to anybody cuz people aren't watching it. But if you watch two minutes of a four minute video, YouTube is gonna say, wow, this video must be powerful and they're gonna serve it up to a lot more people. That's just how the algorithm works. YouTube wants eyeballs on their content.

So from my standpoint, breaking it up into those smaller pieces, right there is really nice to do from a video standpoint, not only from the SEO aspect, but if a customer ever reaches out to you and says hey, I got a question about XYZ and you say, oh, I actually answered that in an episode, you can go here and click here and watch the video.

You've now given them a very interactive piece of content that within a span of five minutes answers their question. So that's my belief. I did a video interview with an entrepreneur who actually felt the exact opposite. He's like if anybody is watching a five, if nobody wants to watch my 30 minute video, I don't wanna do business with them.

I'm like, man, that interview has gotta be very engaging for people to watch 30 minutes on YouTube. But I will say this, YouTube is spending money, getting podcasters to switch over to YouTube. So there is something that is happening behind the scenes there that I don't quite understand, but I do understand that based on the viewing habits that are going on out there, that breaking it up into smaller chunks I believe in my heart of hearts is a smarter play.

Trudy Rankin: Yeah. That's, it's interesting. Cuz I've tried both ways and basically the long ones they do. They end up killing your percentage watch time because people won't… it's just the talking heads. Why would anybody sit there and watch a video of talking heads for that long and that's super engaging.

So it's I think it's right about breaking it down into little snippets.

Cliff. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your story on the podcast. If people were interested in reaching out to you or finding out more about you, where would they go?

Cliff Duvernois: So Trudy if anybody's listening and they wanna check out what's going on the name of my podcast is Entrepreneurs On Podcasting.

The website is Entrepreneurs On Podcasting as well. You can go there and click on all the great episodes, but the show really is just, I'm just reaching out to all these entrepreneurs who are crushing it through their podcast. Their business is growing like crazy. And all I'm doing is just asking them what their secrets are, what their strategies are, how they got started.

How did they overcome their initial obstacles? What advice do they have from people? So it's really, every episode is really information dense. So if you're thinking about podcasting, that would be something that I would definitely listen.

Obviously, I'm gonna say that, cuz I'm the host of the podcast, but really it is a lot of great information for any entrepreneur out there who is thinking about using podcasting as a tool for marketing, for building the strategic connections. It's just filled with all kinds of great information. So highly recommend it Entrepreneurs On Podcasting.

Trudy Rankin: Fantastic. And we'll put those links into the show notes. Thank you again, Cliff. I really, really appreciate having you on the podcast.

Cliff Duvernois: Thank you, Trudy. It's been a pleasure.

 

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